Because the arguments for and against this have become so cluttered up with irrelevant accusations and defences, I have edited the whole thing so as to leave in what is most to the point.

From Cajun:
Hi y'all, seb and pascal,
while reading the french forum and PN's idea for the international forum which I still support I suddenly saw an idea pop into my head. Why not have a special part of the forum where an image is submitted for identification such as a stamp, coin, or whatever. Then an answer could be given in a language of choice with a corresponding icon. The person submitting the item could request the answer be in that language or perhaps have the language interpreted for them. Let me know what y'all think about this.
a bientot,
cajunsr.

From Pascal :
Hello Cajun,
This can already be done via the Forum.
What could be done with this feature that cannot be done with the Forum ?

Pascal.


From Frank :
" an answer could be given in a language of choice "

This cannot be done with the forum . It has been specifically forbidden, as you may remember.

Similarly, anyone could easily see the question regardless of his own language.

Above all, it would be much quicker to look at all recent questions, even if one ignored all of them in Dutch, say, or all of them in English. But people would be tempted to identify things they knew about, even if the language of the question was unfamiliar.

An answer like "Uruguay 1873, 5 euros" is international.

I have seen Plantagetnoble's ideas, and I thought they were good.
It is a pity that ony Cajun and a few others took him seriously.

Frank

From Pascal :
How would like the Forum structure to be ? Because what you are asking me is already possible with the Forum we have now.

Pascal.

From Frank :
There are in fact distinct differences and possibilities compared with what we have on the forum now.
Have a good look at what Cajun and I have already written, especially :

" ' an answer could be given in a language of choice'

This cannot be done with the forum . It has been specifically forbidden, as you may remember.

Similarly, anyone could easily see the question regardless of his own language.

Above all, it would be much quicker to look at all recent questions, even if one ignored all of them in Dutch, say, or all of them in English. But people would be tempted to identify things they knew about, even if the language of the question was unfamiliar.

An answer like 'Uruguay 1873, 5 euros' is international. "

I am not going to keep on and on trying to explain this patiently in different words like Plantagetnoble used to with the French and Belgian philatelists, in fact I am going to avoid the French and Belgian philatlelists. But would you like me to translate it carefully into French for you ?

Anyway, think about it.

Frank

From Pascal :
If I needed help, I would ask the question on all the forums and have my question translated with the automatic translator.

This is what members are already doing.
Pascal.

From Frank :
The problem is that it takes a long time to ask the question on all the forums separately. Surely you must see that it would be easier to enter it just once ? ( It would save you electronic space, too ).

The automatic translator is not very good, and again, to translate it into French, American English, Dutch , British English, German, Italian and Spanish would take a very long time. I don't believe that anyone has ever done this. PLEASE GIVE EXAMPLES ! The number of times that anyone has even approached putting his question on all the different forums in each appropriate language must be well under 10 !

Would it not be much simpler to enter a simple identification question based on a picture onto one international forum, with the question couched in simple terms in any languge , so that any reader might very well understand it and reply ? Incidentally, it would be useful to enable the incorporation of at least 2 pictures into one message, because coins and banknotes have 2 sides.

That, as I see it, is the essence of what Cajun is suggesting. But he is now actually in Cajun country fishing and avoiding the alligators. I don't know if we can hope for him to return.

Frank

From Frank :
Here is a splendid example:

This is on the Italian forum only, although it is in Spanish not Italian :

" !HOLA MI NOMBRE ES BETTY, Y SOY DE NICARAGUA, QUISIERA SABER, EL VALOR APROXIMADO QUE TIENE UNA MONEDA DE 10 C. DOLLAR DE 1827 DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS, ME PUEDEN ESCRIBIR A :nicab1414@hotmail.com ”

I don’t know any Spanish, but I can understand this, and when I can get to an up-to-date catalogue I will answer it easily. My answer will be simply “$x a $y secondo la condizione” (It has to be in Italian now).

No-one has answered this until now (at least, not on the forum), because very few people look at the Italian coin forum. If there was one international (coin) forum as suggested by Cajun, Plantagetnoble, Postlynx, and others, lots of people would have seen this, been able to understand it, and answered it. Many of the French members actually speak Spanish, especially those who live near the Pyrenees, and probably some Americans do too.

Perhaps the big French-speaking philatelic forum could stay isolated, but other languages be put together for philately; and for other topics all languages including French be put together ? Coin and banknote collectors do seem more reasonable, you must admit. Why should everyone be ruled by the more extreme French-speaking philatelists ?

One important thing they do not take into account is that there are not , for example, enough Italian-speaking knowledgable and co-operative coin-collectors on delcampe for that forum to be viable on its own.

Frank

From Frank :
See
Link (http)

Here too, a question has gone unanswered because it has been placed on a little frequented forum, in this case the German banknote forum.

Again, if it had been on the proposed international forum, somebody would have seen it and answered it. For a beginner to have placed it on every forum in every language in the first place, as suggested by Pascal, is an impractical suggestion, especially considering that many such questioners are newcomers. Also, even the most well-meaning member is not going to scour every language forum every day. If they did , this question would have been answered long ago, because it is basically very straightforward. But it takes a long time to do this, especially for several categories (e.g. for coins and banknotes there are 14 forums !). Much easier to have all banknote queries in one place, all stamp queries except in French in one place, all coin queries in one place, etc.

Frank

From Moondude :
This item has been suggested for some time now, to Pascal and to Sébastien and they have both expressed their opinion that this forum would not be necessary.

In the old version there was a category "To Be Identified" where everyone could place their stamps for sale for which they did not know the origin. But these were auctions, and people not wanting to sell their stamps are also looking for answers.

It might be interesting maybe just to allow people to make an auction page (without a real auction) for this, where they could indicate in checkboxes what information they are looking for and integrate a category for this on the homepage. It could also be done on the forum, but by including a special category it could attract more collectors for answers...

Moondude

From Frank :
You seem to be thinking uniquely of stamps in the old days, too. This international help forum would clearly be of more appeal to collectors other than the exuberant self-contained French-speaking stamp collectors . This is now Delcampe International, and it is expanding its interests.

You may have noticed, too, that Pascal and Sébastien don't actually care about whether something is "necessary". The separate United Kingdom forum is obviously not "necessary" at all. There isn't a separate Belgian forum. Perhaps there should be ?

Frank

Here are two more examples of how valuable an international identification forum would be to people in practice. They are both from the Italian forum, but one is in Spanish and one is in French (which would not now be allowed). These queries did not, however, appear on all the national forums. If there was an international forum they would have been answered long ago, because they are not difficult questions. The first one has had to wait 5 months !

Link (http)

Link (http)

Incidentally, it was time-consuming for me to have to write replies in Italian, and pointless, because the questioners do not seem to speak Italian! Oh well, rules are rules.

Frank Apied

“Because the arguments for and against this have become so cluttered up with irrelevant accusations and defences, I have edited the whole thing so as to leave in what is most to the point.”

This is the 3rd part of this abridgement of
Link (http)
presented to you in all good faith. Don’t forget that you are still free to read the original in full. Frank Apied

Cajun himself returned from a holiday.
From Cajun:
… The idea here is to have a place where any philatelists, no matter what their nationality is or language is used can just post that picture of their stamps so they can get an evaluation or a catalog number. The answer is not restricted to any forum but would be an international one, or could be automatically listed on all of the forums. Then the preferred answered could be indicated by a language icon - a very simple procedure via the translator if done correctly. Or even with a little help with icons for scott, minkus, yvert, etc. catalog numbers. And a space for the value and a description in english, OR OTHER LANGUAGES. This would be so useful for all the unlisted varieties, imperfs, covers, and other philatelic items not found in a normal catalog. Anyhow pascal, that was my idea…. Cajun
[I have put “or other languages” in capitals, because foreigners have been distrustful about this. In fact MOST capitals below have been added by me - FA].

From Frank :
This shouldn't be specifically for stamps, though. On the contrary. Coin collectors and banknote collectors are not so opposed to the idea of an international forum including English-speaking members as philatelists are. And for coins and banknotes, almost everybody in the world uses the same (American) catalogues anyway, except often for their own country, and the same (British) catalogues for Ancient Greek and Roman coins.

There is a good example of how it might look with the different icons for each language: the existing Owl Tool
Link (http)
if you use it leaving it to show "All the countries" .
Then you can read down the whole list, and only click on the ones that interest you, according to BOTH subject AND accessibility.
In the case of the proposed forum, you would click on the ones that interest you, according to BOTH subject AND language understanding.
If it is a long way away, or in a strange language, BUT on your favourite subject, you are more likely to make the journey, or try to understand it ! Isn't that sensible ? Frank Apied


From Cajun:
hi frank,
I agree, this format could be adopted to fit all the hobby collectibles. PASCAL should bring this to the meeting table with Seb and the crew. If they are really wanting this to be an international auction, the forum should again empower these thoughts and progress to that level. It really is the next logical step of evolution for this well thought out system. It is time for the Europeans and Americans to become one in the new century …. Cajun

From Frank:
Sure enough, the member from Nicaragua
Link (http)
has sent me an email complaining that she does not understand Italian.

But the rigid separatist rules of Delcampe International insisted that I should reply in Italian, although I am English and the question was in Spanish. We were then left little choice but to sort it out privately.
This is not the way for Delcampe "International" to go !

Cajun is pointing in the right direction, not only of course for Europe and the USA, but for the whole world. Many of the so-called English-speaking members are actually from countries like China and India. Frank Apied

From Moondude:
If the member does not understand Italian, then he/she made a mistake placing the message on that forum, not delcampe.

If you are able to communicate with the member by email, he/she must speak another language, so he/she could have asked her question on that forum...
Who's to blame : the member Moondude.
[Actually, we could not communicate satisfactorily by email, as was explained later. Me no Spanish, her no English – Frank] .

From Cajun:
I have been reading this lively discussion with a big smile on my face as I have had my past altercations with moondude. But I offered the olive branch to him on the French forum but with no reply. Most of the offensive things said have now been censored from delcampe, …..so moondude it is time to bury the hatchet and be friends again. I don't want to be enemies with anyone….. Cajun

From Moondude:
I have nothing against you Cajun.
I do have problems with persons who use multiple nicknames to convince people of their opinion, to attack other people, make false bids,... So for now, have beer on me Moondude.

[This was the beginning of lengthy arguments with Moondude, including what appears to be his forgetting or misunderstanding of what really happened with the Nicaraguan, and Frank defending the Nicaraguan.
This will be left out here. If you want to read it all, continue from
Link (http) ]

From Cajun:
…..As for the suggestion, the international forum is now very necessary for delcampe international. If delcampe is to survive in the auction world, it no longer can compete as a European market but must be global in its concepts. And moondude, this means changing the forum as well to accept ALL LANGUAGES under one roof so all hobby questions can have an answer. This was possible in the beginning with delcampe. I have been here for most of the 6 years Seb has had his site. I have watched it grow from a small server to a huge operation and a massive headache. This includes monitoring the daily forums and the catfights that go on within its boundaries and of course, the censorship. ….. I ain't no genius, but I can think. And I do try to think of ways to improve this site. Always have. But Seb does have an excellent crew and often comes up with the improvements before I can make them. And that is the sign of a great company. But the international forum should be instituted for the good of all the delcampers. They are the ones who will benefit the most, not the minority. Cajun

From Moondude:
…….As said before, I do not see a NEED for a forum in a whole that should be international, but I could see the USE of a language free identification section on the site.

... Once more, step by step:

- Make a IDENTIFICATION section
- Let people make pages there, in a similar layout as auctions.
- In these pages, they can add a couple of scans of the objects to be identified.
- Add checkboxes where they can indicate which information they seek (age, country, value,... ... ...)

ONCE more: NO auctions, but QUESTION pages. Easy to browse in a separate section... Moondude

From Cajun:
This is not a perplexing issue here to ask for an international forum for all newcomers of any nation to come to ask any question about any hobby in any language available that can be translated with the computer translation programs. I see no need to do it in the auction style as the forum is a much more open approach. Not everyone wishes to sell an item here. Perhaps only information wishes to be exchanged. But if the person wishes to sell, then the choice is left to them. I think we are ignoring a tremendously growing market of third world consumers with the latinos of the american worlds. Again, an excellent opportunity to extend the helping hand of delcampe is not being done by ignoring an internation forum. Wake up seb and smell the enchilados and chili. Spain had a lot of colonies too besides France and England. And now they are full of people ready to wheel and deal, and many of them live in my country. And yes, they buy stamps, coins, and other things. And frank is right with his thoughts, we cannot ignore someone new just because they speak a different tongue because of a few archaic rules.Aand moondude, what would it be like in your country if you were not allowed to speak Dutch, or French, or German, or any other language? I would call it havoc. I am an American, even here we have our prejudices against those who speak foreign tongues, but I don't. I welcome them….. Cajun

From Frank :
….It is not impossible that what Moondude is proposing is really quite similar to what Cajun is proposing, but with more rigid rules (which I don’t think are helpful, because beginners from other countries ARE going to make mistakes in the procedure --- so what ?)…..

I’m sure he [Moondude] has quite a useful proposal …. I, for one, would have no objection to him explaining himself here in French. This might save a lot of future argument.

The hammers smashing the Nicaraguan for allegedly being so stupid as to ask the question in a language he doesn't understand, particularly as she asked the question in Spanish, I find very offensive ! Frank Apied

From Cajun:
…..Latin American countries. ….democracy …….their freedom of speech. let's hope Seb, Pascal, and the delcampe crew don't stifle this process by ignoring the thoughts of an international forum. Cajun

From Cajun :
….learned a long time ago rules get broken everyday. You have broken them on delcampe and so have I. We are human, not machines or computers. We are here to help, not hinder;…. Cajun

[At Frank’s suggestion, Cajun replies to the Nicaraguan in Spanish.
Link (http) , breaking the new delcampe language reulation.
Some time later, and surprisingly, Moondude applauded this. Meanwhile:]

From Frank:
… We are trying to help the Nicaraguan and people like her in future. Moondude is continually trying to hinder this with a wild variety of accusations against her and us and a hypothetical them, and the wielding of restrictive and pointless regulations…. Frank

From Frank:
…. Most objectionable of all, he wants to smash Nicaraguans and other newcomers, whereas Cajun and I want to help them. I think that is very very evident. … Frank
[Moondude’s comments are of course still available if you wish to judge them for yourself, for example the next one]

From Moondude:
Moondude doesn't keep on giving the same answers to questions which are only asked differently...
Bla Bla Bla = bla bla bla = bla bla bla

You go point by point with a detour to the same conclusion, without answering other peoples comments :-) You only talk for yourself and your arguments. That is not a discussion that is a MONOLOGUE....

You really don't read posts very well, you read with a narrow vision, without a broader perspective, taking words as literal as possible, just to find something to whine on about... If that is the standard of UK elderly educated people, I am glad I don't run into those too often. Moondude,

From Frank:
… All these rules should be done away with , and the whole thing SIMPLIFIED. Members should not have to flit around from flag to flag like this, getting NO HELP or even being penalised if they chance on the wrong one, perhaps not even recognising the flag, and how can they tell that the American flag represents the de facto English language forum, not the British flag (which is there for no known purpose) ? Frank

[This is a VITAL point: “getting NO HELP”. There is not really much help to be had on the British, German, Italian, or Spanish forums ! - Frank ]

From Moondude:
As stated by Pascal already multiple times, but obviously not read by Frank, it is allowed to post a message in a foreign language as long as it is accompanied by a translation in the language of the forum, preferable with the version in the language of the forum on top. …….It would be simplified if people read the rules before posting and obey them … Moondude

From Moondude:
….Maybe instead of wanting to change Delcampe all the time, you could assist people in using Delcampe in the way that it is designed to be used …. Moondude

From Frank:
.. And other people are just innocent newcomers who may not recognise the flag, or certainly not realise how important Moondude has made it. Moondude is fanatical about keeping to rules…. Frank

From Cajun:

….delcampers might not ever read the forum rules and not knowing them, just try to get an answer at any of the forums. When you buy a new toy, do you always read the instructions or just play with it? …Here again, the international forum will solve all this… Cajun

From Frank:
Cajun is absolutely right.
Nobody reads the instructions …. Frank

From Cajun :
…..Tolerance, it is a difficult lesson in life to learn. And each day, i have to learn a new lesson as I grow older. Maybe this is what they call in our older life wisdom. Cajun

PLEASE RESPECT THIS AS A SUMMARY.
IF YOU WISH TO COMMENT FURTHER, PLEASE ADD YOUR COMMENTS TO THE FULL VERSION. Link (http)

If you wish to read all the rather irrelevant arguments in full, you can still do so there. I have done my best to leave in only what is most relevant.

Frank Apied (obviously with abridged messages from others too).

hi y'all,
i don't think my proposal could be more succinctly analyzed or correctly be presented. my thanks to frank for his help. i ain't no genuis when it comes to stuff like this, i leave that to my lawyer brother. now give me somethin' scientific, and i'll run circles around y'all. and that is what my proposal was all about, something logical, and simple. and for all delcampers, esp. the newcomers. nothin' worse than being intimidated by a bunch of rules and regulations. hell, you should go to our gov't. offices like social security if you don't know what i mean. KISS-keep it simple, stupid-a nice anectidote used by me for many of my projects. anyhow, seb and pascal, i know y'all are busy but the crowd is gathering down here for the international forum, even on the french forum. the time has come. please consider it. it will only bring the best to delcampe, trust the ol' cajun.
a bientot,
cajunsr.